Michał: You’ve said a lot about Voldemort, but I think I can add something from myself. In general, it is interesting that You-Know-Who, despite being a largely one-dimensional character, is a very broad field for analysis. I found out about it when I wrote the aforementioned Harry motif series – while writing the newest part, I realized that there is actually no motive where I would not mention Harry’s nemesis, and sometimes even more where it would not be a specific point references to my considerations.
Without going into details, let me just say that it turns out that JK Rowling used the figure of Voldemort as a kind of prism through which she shows how to end up understanding certain phenomena in the wrong way. The two most striking examples are love and death. It is significant that Voldemort cannot understand what love is and what value it has, and his whole story shows what can happen to a man who lacks this love in his life. The fear of death and the desire to run away from it (which led to the creation of horcruxes) result in turn from the inability to accept the fact that it is something we should accept, because it is inevitable and sooner or later it will reach us – just as it finally reached us. the Dark Lord himself. Voldemort is therefore not only the embodiment of the worst human qualities, but also a mirror (in this case in the negative sense of the word) reflection of those that should be interpreted as rather positive. In addition, I agree with Krzysiek that he is a direct reference to Hitler – professing purity of race as the supreme value (while being a wizard not necessarily pure-blooded), combined with the lack of love, being hated and inflicting countless harm to others, makes Voldemort really becomes its magic counterpart.
Comparing it with Grindelwald, I would refer, unlike Mateusz, who probably based his observations to a greater extent on the films from the Fantastic Beasts series .(which we will go to later), to books, and one fact in particular. Regardless of what Grindelwald was, what he did not do, and how much harm the wizarding world did not suffer from him, it was able, even after many years in Nurmengard, to repent and regret his actions. This is something that definitely distinguishes him from Voldemort, who, even during the final confrontation with Harry, seemed to be doing nothing about the evil he had done during all these years (being outraged by the main character pointing it out to him). In the end, Voldemort has exceeded the limits of humanity that Grindelwald did not want to exceed, and this is what makes the latter, after all, a better person.
By the way – when talking about characters who balance on the edge of good and evil, one cannot fail to mention the most mysterious and unusual hero of the series – Severus Snape hated by Harry. How would you rate his motivations and actions? Can it be clearly defined as positive or negative? Or is he someone in the middle?
Eliza: A bit in the middle, but I am leaning closer to the negative character nonetheless. His hatred for Harry was completely real. A person so filled with this feeling cannot be entirely positive. Even if it does a lot of good for others. His motives were never entirely clear to me. He acted out of love, with incredible courage, but still under the influence of hatred. This is one of the most complex characters in the series, and it probably shouldn’t be pigeonholed.
Krzysztof: Honestly speaking, I judge him very negatively and in my case the attempt to whiten his image at the end of the series did not work at all. At the beginning, we recognize him as a rude and simply unpleasant type who treats students unfairly – he intimidates some and favors others. In addition, he consistently treats Harry badly, who only blamed him for looking like James. We think he’ll be a villain, but he’s not … luckily, he turns out to be just a shag.
His entire backstory and relationship with Lily also do not clear him of the “accusations” in my eyes. Snape voluntarily surrounded himself at school with dark-star types and experimented with dark magic, and rejected Lily’s friendship when she tried to get him out of this company. In Pensieve we can see that the girl tried to help him later anyway, but he rejected her. However, when she finally became interested in James, Severus could not survive it and hated his rival even more, blaming him for “taking away” the woman he had pushed himself away earlier. So I think our Potions Master had no love for Lily at all, but rather had a toxic, selfish obsession with her. Ultimately, he became more of a stalker than a friend or potential partner.
After school, however, he voluntarily became a Death Eater and revised his views only when his “beloved” became the target of the Dark Lord. If Voldemort had decided to kill Neville and the Longbottom family instead, Snape would probably never have left him. So his change of sides was a coincidence and another manifestation of selfishness, and not a praiseworthy positive internal change.
Mateusz: And I will stand up for Snape! The visitor fell in love with the only girl who saw him differently. They understood each other very well being, due to their origin, a bit to the side. Everything was great, until the handsome Mr. Potter, the typical high school athlete and girl in the form of a “magic tinsel” appeared, flew at him. In flashbacks, we observe his behavior towards Snape, – he almost lowered his head in the toilet (although in the world of magic it is done a bit differently) – and yet the empathetic Lily “followed” Potter. A story like many.
Then Severus goes to the “dark side of the force”, experiences his youthful rebellion and finds himself in a group in which he is distinguished due to his high skills. Nevertheless, it turns out that he is no longer such a Cossack and a “bad guy” when it comes to the life of his beloved. The guy goes to Dumbeledore for help, and Dumbeledore takes advantage of his feelings and manipulates him. Snape feels responsible for Harry to Lily, but he hates the image of James in him. He is a bitter loser in life. It is worth noting that Harry never harassed anyone, unlike his father, which makes sense to me.
As I mentioned earlier, Rowling is referring somewhat to the gospel of Judas, in which the traitorous apostle gave Jesus up so that he could be elevated higher. It’s the same with Snape. He was hated and had to do a “black job” so that Harry Potter could achieve the goal set for him by Dumbledore. Nevertheless, he will eventually be redeemed in the eyes of society by Harry – otherwise his name would be cursed forever.
Krzysztof: Mateusz, this is just a commonly cited vision of the development of this relationship, but probably not in line with the sequence of events. Snape had an urge to black magic from the beginning, and dealt with future Death Eaters much earlier than his friendship with Lily had deteriorated. Well, that was the reason for their “parting” – the girl was unable to accept her fascination with this type of magic and the influence that the Slytherins had on Snape. James, on the other hand, was a buffoon and despised him until the last year, when Lupine said he had matured.
In Pensieve, anyway, we see a point “in between” where Lily is no longer friends with Severus, though she still cares for him, and still doesn’t digest Potter. Besides, reiterating Harry’s conversation with Lupine, that scene was just one of many skirmishes between Snape and Potter, and the whole conflict wasn’t bullying one over the other, but rather spiteful rivalry like Harry and Draco. So, despite Severus’ understandable dislike of James, which unfortunately later passed on to his son, it cannot all be called “persecution”.
Whatever the case, I appreciate the comparison to Judas – it never occurred to me before, and I think there is something to it!
Mateusz: Lupine’s opinion is not a determinant for me here, because he belonged to the same company. Of course, let’s treat my “high school” argument humorously. I try to show the situation on the part of Severus, treated with contempt as Longbottom. I have the impression that Rowling did not have a coherent, complete plan for the whole story, so some threads have holes in them, like Weasleys’ robes passed through. She wanted to create a wonderful, magical version of redemption, which was clearly beyond her, so I understand your ambiguous perception of this character.
Eliza:There are many threads in Snape’s story that explain, in a way, his bitterness and “mean” behavior, it is a fact. From an early age he was tormented at home, experienced violence, then he always remained strange and different, convinced that he was worth little. Many of his dark qualities later emerge from these complexes, such as a fierce hatred of Harry. We can also explain his interest in black magic by the fact that he found something similarly intolerated by others as himself. Suddenly there is a Lily who completely does not see this quirk, who befriends him – despite the fact that everything seems to be not worth the friendship. This relationship gives him a value he did not realize before. He only had her with Lily. That’s why I agree with Krzysiek that what he felt for Lily was not love, but rather gratitude for that she saw him as a valuable man. The classic attitude of an undervalued person manifests itself in his behavior later – not believing in his worth himself, he probably expected that Lily would eventually turn away from him and turn out to be like everyone else. Moreover, he pushed her to do it, knowing that she did not tolerate witchcraft and still dabbled in it. And here you have, not only did she leave him, one scum, but she also went with some self-righteous guy who was abusing him. Typical! that she does not tolerate witchcraft and still dabbles in it. And here you have, not only did she leave him, one scum, but she also went with some self-righteous guy who was abusing him. Typical! that she does not tolerate witchcraft and still dabbles in it. And here you have, not only did she leave him, one scum, but she also went with some self-righteous guy who was abusing him. Typical!
Except that Lily’s attitude is much more complex and deeply Snape knew about it, because he had finally departed from the Dark Lord for her. I wouldn’t even humorously flatten her character to the level of a “magic blachara”, c’mon! She accepted Severus as he was, consciously seeing that black magic was drawing him to the dark side of his character. And, as Krzysiek noticed, she was not at all sympathetic to James until he stopped making a fool of himself.
And here is a great comparison between Snape and Neville Longbottom: both ridiculed, both “inferior” among their colleagues and underrated in their family homes. What happened to each of them afterwards is for me the ultimate confirmation that Snape was not a positive character. Well, Neville, when a hand was reached out to him, accepted himself, his shortcomings, focused on his strengths and did not take revenge on everyone else for his own wrongs. Snape, despite the fact that in his life he had met people who were kind and willing to help him (Lily, Dumbledore), he turned towards the darkness anyway. Theoretically, he finally switched to the “light side of the force,” but these were rather attempts to redeem his past sins, not the result of goodness of heart.
Michał: Let me put it this way – for me, Snape is the greatest mindfuck of the whole Harry universe. His ambiguous motivations, keeping the reader in doubt as to what page he really took, and finally the surprising ending of his story in the form of memories in the Pensieve make him an incredibly complex character that is difficult to feel only like or hate at. However, I do not agree with Mateusz and Krzysiek that his story is full of holes. On the contrary – I think his character is just as ambiguous as it is very well thought out. After all, it is all about love, and when that feeling is involved, you are always torn by extreme emotions. One might think that Snape was selfish, acting only in the name of that love, but only up to a point – for it should be noted that after Dumbledore’s death he was already working to restore peace in the wizarding world, being faithful to the deceased director. Anyway, Harry himself in the epilogueThe Deathly Hallows notes that Snape has shown incredible courage, plotting right under Voldemort’s very nose (that’s a metaphor of course!), Which proves that even in the eyes of the main character he was redeemed. Therefore, although I do not feel unequivocally positive about Snape, as in the case of Dumbledore, I will also stand up for him, believing that although he has made many mistakes in the past (including joining the Dark Lord in the service), however, he eventually realized them and did everything to atone for them – first for purely selfish reasons, and then for a higher purpose.
Krzysztof: Oh, you touched on so many things at once that I don’t know where to start! I think it would be best with Lily… Yes, Lupine was probably not quite objective, but he was clearly embarrassed in his conversation with Harry and admitted that James and Sirius were often acting out of order and even then he felt silly for not reacting to it. Since he could confess this to Harry, he probably had no reason to further lie. I don’t think that Snape’s story seems too full of holes, but Rowling did try to patch it up afterwards – I don’t remember where I found it anymore, but I once read an English text by her, describing the moment when Severus, Sirius and James met for the next time first on the Hogwarts train. And she did draw mutual aversion and malice there, and not typical bullying.
Like Eliza, I obviously understand most of Snape’s motivations, and what he has become as he was. I don’t see him as a “monster” like Voldemort. It’s just that we have to deal with our demons in such a way as not to hurt others, and this clearly failed, so somehow I can’t like him and believe in his selfless conversion. And here, indeed, the juxtaposition with Neville shows the gist of the matter – Longbottom also had a hard time, indeed, he was probably worse, because he was not considered a shammy weirdo, but a complete, useless hack that can be pushed around. Neville, however, patiently endured these adversities, and by dealing with them, he grew tighter, gained confidence in himself, and eventually became one of the leaders of the school’s “resistance”.
And speaking of the work of “converted” Snape for Dumbledore, I am tempted to make a comparison, only from outside the universe – this situation reminds me a bit of Darth Vader. The latter, too, at a critical moment changed sides in the name of love, and then ended up in solitude, as the right hand of man to whom he had joined by necessity. I think, like the erstwhile Anakin Skywalker, Snape was already broken at this point and burdened with the knowledge that there was no way to return to his former life and former allies, so he did not care if Dumbledore was using him, and the case was right. He did what he was supposed to do, because he had nothing else to do. Besides, we don’t know how much of his fight with Voldemort in the last volumes was due to his will to save the world,
Mateusz: Note, our discussion shows that Snape is a combination of Judas (the theme of sacrifice) and Anakin Skywalker (transformation as a result of love) – it seems illogical. This was not what I expected, but I would also see him as a lone gunslinger bringing justice to Voldemort for Lily’s death. Nevertheless, each of our opinions is supported by strong arguments, showing the complexity and multidimensionality of this character in an interesting way.
